Friday, July 29, 2011

Who's to Blame?

I didn't truly know what to call this post, but I think
that title is very appropriate becasue that is what people
do they look for something or someone to blame, instead
to being accountable for their own actions.

Now this post came about when I posted a comment about
WWE12 that made me look like a crazy bitch on the SVR.com
page.  Now I was trying many times to have a serious
discussion on there at times, but I don't know I think
alot of the time people mostly Men are incapable of having a serious
discussion especially on online.

 So I seen guys put up crazy rant posts and be taken
seriously so that is what I decided to do. 
 and it was met with many levels of negativity and
hostility especially from one User by the name of
KurenaiOD  who told me if I wanted to engage the board
in a serious discussion I should come up with a serious argument
and not just makes crazy posts and statements.

I then sent him a Private Message (PM) to tell him that
is what I was trying to do before but no one would take
me seriously and that message would result in a
intelligent conversation which is posted below
on "Who's to blame" 

(side note I go by DisapointedDiva on
that website were the below messages are from becasue
I'm disappointed in the game)

-------------
Participants: KurenaiOD and DisapointedDiva
DisapointedDiva
06/15/2011 - 6:16pm

Original serious argument: 


but like I said if people are going to be dicks to me  when I'm trying to stand up
for what I believe in then I'm going to be a crazy bitch  becasue that is the only
way they understand things.   whenever I meet someone online who just wants to
be an Asshole for the sake for being an Asshole  it kind of reminds me of that line
from the Dark Knight

Alfred Pennyworth: Because he thought it was good sport. Because some men 
aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, 
reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

and its the same on the internet some people on here don't care about the game, or
its production or what goes into it and some probably have never played it any of them.
All they want to do is cause an upset.

you would say "I would like them to put such and such back in"  and people will agree
with you  but those hand full of people will disagree with you no matter what it is.  they
just disagree becasue they think its funny.  they might actually want the thing also but they
will disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

KurenaiOD
06/15/2011 - 7:48pm

That is very true, that's the sort of argument I prefer to read not the whole
"being a crazy bitch" thing, yes sometimes people only understand that sort of act
but at the same time a lot of arseholes are playing to get you acting that way.

By throwing a wobbly you provoke arrogance and arsehole behavior from them,
being mature, they just look like stupid morons who can't string words together.
Brains in debate will always outweigh heavy words, especially heavy words created by such a brain.

I was wrong about you basing my opinion on that first outspoken post, you clearly do
have a good head on your shoulders, so I apologize if anything I said insulted you initially,
I just can't stand pussy complaining since I am so used to more constructive and intelligent
discussion... also due to the hoohaa it causes on the forum where there are so many egotisical
gits on here.

DisapointedDiva
06/15/2011 - 11:04pm

Well that's true and that is the original argument that is always talked about. but even when I leaded with that people give me crap over it.  consistently just like heaping it on.  to the point where you have to strike out at some times.   and yes like I said i tried to have more constructive and intelligent discussion which I have had with alot of people through the message function but when you try to do it in a general discussion mode  I just have assclowns and jerkstores  all over me.  telling me I'm crazy and an idiot and just cursing me out.

But like I said I have research, facts and figures my opinions, other peoples opinions, and actual quote from a reporter from an actual serious wrestling site, stuff that contradicts what WWE says.  having them not care what I said after THQ told me "its not our problem"  I didn't half ass this.   "Brains in debate will always outweigh heavy words"  thats not always true people will always be like the horse from Ren & Stimpy and be all "No Sir, I Don't Like It"  and alot of the times they do it just to be jerks. 

Also people like to get up on their moral high horse  but  like I told that mike guy  "You can have all the moral authority in the world, but being on the “right” side doesn’t mean being right."

and well like I said I don't complain if there is nothing to complain about, I'm not that type of person but this is worth complaining about becasue it is unfair to a great majority of players.  That is why I'm mad with pretty much the whole thing  is as far as the women are concerned they are two faced and hypercritical  they say one thing and do another.

Also that's why I came up with the idea of making it a option as well as having an on/off switch.   if you can turn on/off the blood why not this?    There are many ways you can argue this  but in the end it just seems futile..

and do you know what hurts me,  the number 1 thing right now that everyone is concerned about isn't this..it isn't game play or move set  the number one thing people care about in WWE12 is whether Randy Orton will have a beard or not...that's your WWE Universe..

KurenaiOD
06/15/2011 - 11:09pm

To be honest this actually came up a while back, I suggested an optional thing too with being able to turn off inter-gender etc.  I brought up sexism and how the female gamers were getting a raw deal, it's somewhere in the old SvR 2011 threads, it was called something along the lines of "Do WWE intentionally paint the picture that women are weak or is it WWE?", can't remember the title exactly but it may show up in the search.

I agree with you in the sensible wording you put it down as, as did I agree with your following points.

Oh and please don't get me started I've left enough sarcastic posts in that stupid beard thread XD  It's true that is one of the stupid things people are concerned about.

DisapointedDiva
06/18/2011 - 6:08pm

Well I didn't know that it came up awhile ago  as people seem to like to point out I haven't been here very long, not that it matters.  Also yes that would be the best idea to do, is to make it a choose-able thing.  Not remove it completely for fear that some mother somewhere in the world will start a shit storm and blame WWE becasue lil Jimmy punched his sister. 

I don't know if you have kids, but have you ever watched kids play?  I don't have any at lease not yet,  but a friend of mine has a son he is 9 going on 10 and like most lil boys he has quite a few action figures. Now I have watched him playing he'd have his ring set up and have Mickie James Fighting Triple H.   Triple H would punch her out and in comes Beth who kicks him in the head and when Triple H goes down Cena jumps in clotheslines  Beth, then Mickie who has gotten up comes off the top rope and cross bodies Cena and it goes on and on like that...  Kids don't discriminate..Kids are taught to discriminate.

Now true someone could say that is a tell tale sign that he will grow up to be an abuser..   How does that work he is just a lil boy playing with his toys on the living room carpet..   Now if someone were to come in there and tell him "oh you can't play like that,  The women characters can't be in the ring with the male characters"   he would probably look at you like you have 2 heads..   and it would bring up the question of  "what right do you have to tell him how to play"  that stifles his creativity, his imagination and he will feel like he is doing something wrong and it will as you put it "intentionally paint the picture that women are weak"  and that is just wrong. 

Now like I said I don't support or condone violence towards women "in real life" like where you hear about some guy stabling his girlfriend on the news that's not cool. but on the other side of it were talking about stuff that isn't real.  your not really beating up real people on the Smackdown VS.Raw games. true you could say  the Undertaker is real,  but not in the game it is a visual representation of someone, its a computer model, its an Avatar.   having a computer generated Stone Cold Steve Austin fighting it out with a computer generated Trish Stratus is not going to hurt anyone.  but sure according to watchdog groups, it will. I don't see how but it will with their made up stats and moral righteousness.

But thanks for agreeing with my points and when putting it down I wanted to be precise and truthful there is no made up stuff in my blog posting it can all be back up with source links and videos I provided.   I wasn't going to say something with out having some evidence of what I was saying was factual

I know the whole beard thing is rather stupid  I posted my quote on other places

"do you know what hurts me,  the number 1 thing right now that everyone is concerned about isn't this (Diva Restrictions and discrimination)..it isn't game play or move set  the number one thing people care about in WWE12 is whether Randy Orton will have a beard or not...that's your WWE Universe.."

out of all the weighty more important things we could be talking about concerning the game this is the number one thing people are worried about?  but I guess this place is no different from any other all the serious threads get lost in the crap post post.

KurenaiOD
06/18/2011 - 9:21pm

Yeah I know, to be totally honest for the most part I don't buy the "Games make kids into violent killers" bullcrap, it's parenting, if the parents were spending time with their kids and watching them properly and not buying overrated age games for them they would be doing them a favor.  Too often films and games become excuses for bad parents, that seems to be the case for the most part.

I remember a killing here in the UK where a kid stabbed someone with a screwdriver in the neck and the mum went on and blamed Manhunt... totally missing the fact that the game was 18 rated and the boy who drivered the other was 14... so that bit her on the arse because she actually willingly bought the game.  If the game is to blame then surely the mother is the murder?  But no of course not it's the games fault not hers at all, blame the game, restrict on developers creativity because you are a bad parent.  Being a games design student it's something the pisses me off since we get hit with restrictions when some idiot parent buys a game they shouldn't lol.

That Phinneus guy is getting all lordy with his opinion again, lol accusing me of attacking him when I voiced my opinion, if he gets that irritated by me saying something against him, that means he's attacked every post I've ever made lol.  Ah well he'll go away eventually, he attacked me ages go over a CAW when I voiced my opinion about not liking it lol.

   
DisapointedDiva
06/21/2011 - 11:45pm

I totally agree, now I don't play or support the shooter games.
I don't have a problem with FPS in general if your some Space Marine
in the year 3035 shooting Aliens or robots that's all well and good.
but if your in present day and everything is realistic like how it actually
is in an actual combat situation then that is a bit to much.
Also I don't think games like this send a good message becasue you
could be doing  "Mission Pack: Iraq" and you go and start shooting
Iraqis. is that a good message to put out there?  not really becasue
pretty soon anyone with darker skin becomes "the enemy".
Now I know that might sound hypocritical being for one thing and
not the other but then again it is all a point of view.

 But I do agree with you also, It is parenting and yes alot of
it is the parents are "too busy"  and rely on this stuff to much
when they should be spending time with their kids and actually
paying attention to what types of media they consume. One of the
arguments I bring up is the games are rated T for Teen.
if the kid is like 8 years old he shouldn't be playing
the game to begin with becasue I missed the announcement were
being 8 made you a Teen.

 also people complained and complained and a ratings board was
put into to place and where did that get us? No where..becasue
no one pays attention to it.. Also people might say well Shooters
are rated M so only people over 17 can buy them.  and I would say
are you serious? people under the age of 17 are going to play
this no matter the rating. trust me on this.

  I know becasue I work retail. I work at my friends
collectables shop and we sell games there and I have had
8-10 year olds try to by M rated games and I have to be all
"sorry hon you're not old enough"  and they would leave and
no more then 3-5mins an adult walks in and buys that exact
same thing and who is this? it was probably their mom or
dad waiting in the car outside. So being that this is an
adult I have no problem selling it to them.
and after a few hours to the next day I had that same
person come back and throw a fit about how I could sell
this to their child and all that speel and I tell them I
didn't sell it to their child I told your child No and
and they went out and complained to you and then you
came in and bought it for them and gave it to them.

So of course they don't like that answer and the thing is
returned (open stuff like that are put on the shelf behind
the counter and sold at a discount to make up the money that
had to be refunded)  There were even times when the parent
and the kid were there and I told the parent that this is
rated such and such and they wanted it anyway.. so they have
no right to complain after wards becasue if they don't want
there kids exposed to certain things they shouldn't be buying
the kid the things that will expose them to it.

also that is Bullcrap saying "Games make kids into violent killers"
they will always say that about stuff though.
in the 50s Elvis dancing was only shown from the waist up.
They thought it was too sexual.

There were also stations banning rock and roll music
as it was  the music of the devil.
The same when KISS made its appearance, if you were a
member of the "KISS army" you were in a "satanic cult"
if something is moderately popular "they" as in some group being
it censorship/Religious/parental/Violence against anyone/thing.
will have a problem with it

Everything from body piercings, to dying your hair orange,
to the clothes you wear.and especially when it comes to the media..
apparently...
Porn turns you into a Rapist
Horror movies make you a serial killer
any type of angry music "heavy metal/rap" makes you a
violent killer.
Role Playing games dive you insane
television makes you stupid (hence its called "the Idiot box")
pro wrestling makes you a wife beater
and of course Video Games make kids into violent killers.
and it goes on and on and it will always be that way..

Take the internet for example everyone loves the internet especially
me but when the internet started gaining popularly suddenly
people were saying that it will infect your home, break
up your family and corrupt your kids while at the same time
stealing every dime you have or ever will have..
20 years from now people are going to say "HoloDecks
cause VR addiction and insanity when the player can no
longer tell fiction from reality"  so that will always be there.

 Its funny that we're complaining about an American thing being
that you're in the UK and I'm from Canada. but isn't that always
the way..
well yeah I agree to some extent that she should be at fault.
she purchased the game and if there is a scene like that in there
(I never played Man Hunt) you could argue that, that is where he had
gotten the idea from, but then you can pretty much kill anyone with
just about anything..but still if the game was rated 18+ and he was
14, then like I said above he shouldn't have been playing it in the first
place. so yes some blame should go on her. 
I call it "finger pointing" because they point the finger at
what they perceive to be the cause of the problem.  Take the
Columbine shooting as an example they blamed that in part
on video games such as Doom and Wolfenstein 3D.

Many lawsuits against video game manufacturers were filed as
a result by parents of some of the victims.
But not only were games like this blamed but the main blame the one
person they held responsible for this was Marilyn Manson..
here you can see his reaction to being blamed for it


 I think he has an excellent point, I'm not a fan of his I like
maybe 3 songs of his but still he does make excellent points
you can also read the article that was written in Rolling Stone
by Manson here: http://www.antilife.org/files/marilyn.html
I fully agree that goes back to what I was saying with
the Gender restrictions and if you ever notice I am not
promoting Male violence against Women, I always
refer to it as Diva V.s Superstars and People get bent
out of shape.  also to restrict developers creativity
is not something they should do  people who complain forget that:

A. The average game player is 37 years old and has been playing
games for 12 years.

B. The average age of the most frequent game purchaser
is 41 years old.

C. In 2011, 29 percent of Americans over the age of 50 play
video games, an increase from nine percent in 1999.

D. Parents are present when games are purchased or rented 91
percent of the time.

(this information can be found here: http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp)

I deal in fact and figures, also the time of lil kids being the number one players
is gone and by making everything kid friendly it is hurting the industry as a whole.
The main game players are adults and the entertainment should grow with them but
true if they refuse to heed the ratings on the games and some idiot
parent buys a game they shouldn't and gives it to their child
and then complains about the violence in it it is their own fault.
Its not the games fault that piece of "Media" was produced for persons
over 18+ and not for a 9, 13 or 15 year old.

 "Facts, common sense and numerous studies all debunk the myth
that there is a link between computer and video games and violence.


Blaming video games for violence in the real world is
no more productive than blaming the news media for bringing
crimes of violence into our homes night after night.  Having
someone or something to blame is convenient, especially after an
incident of terrible and unexplainable violence.  But to do so is
simplistic, and more importantly, it's wrong."
(quote from here:  http://www.theesa.com/facts/violence.asp)

The reason I used that quote is that I'm constantly told
"Blame Chris Benoit for the Gender Restrictions. It is his fault!" 
Now I'm not going to do that and here is the problem with people
saying that. Here is what I told people who kept hammering away
with that excuse.

"Now here is the thing about the Chris Benoit excuse.
Now true it was a horrible thing that happened.
and it took place on June 25 2007  now SVR2008 was released
November 13, 2007 that is 4 months, 19 days after what happen
to Benoit.  
Sure they removed all thing related to Benoit from SVR08  
but if Female VS. Male was such a hot button thing at that
time then why wasn't that removed? they had over 4 Months to do it.
  Then along came SVR09 which was released November 9, 2008
that's 1 year, 4 months, 16 days after the events of what
happened to  Benoit. Then finally SVR2010 came out on
October 20, 2009  and at that point it had been 2 years, 3 months, 26 days 
since the Benoit thing.
If the Female VS. Male thing was such a hot button issue becasue
of the tragedy of Benoit.  wouldn't you think that it would have been 
removed before SVR2008  was released?
I would think so!  I wouldn't wait over 2 years to remove a
problem.  that is why the "Benoit excuse"  doesn't work  especially
for me  becasue it doesn't make sense."
(releases dates are for North America)

No you can't blame it on him and what he did but of course
that is just one of the excuses I heard that most people cling to.
I think I made this long enough I might actually take
this and make it a blog post. Also don't worry about what people
say on the boards they are fixed into one opinion and will not change
it for anyone no matter what you say or do.
and if your opinion doesn't match theirs they'll take offense
to that.  Like the Benoit thing above when I posted that people
flipped out they don't like be showed up and someone telling them the
truth
----------------------

  As you can see I did make it a blog post. 
but it is true, you can't blame the Media for anything.

If that were the case then you could blame WWE for plenty.

for example on the July 11th 2011 episode of RAW Vince called CM Punk
a son of a bitch.  Now I do agree with what CM Punk said Vince is
probably the one of the biggest Hypocrites and do agree with alot of what
CM Punk had said. Also having good 'ol Stone Cold Steve Austin
running around calling every one with in ear shot a "sonovabitch"
Also here is Stone Cold Steve Austin flipping people off on  RAW 3/7/2011
(wait until the slider gets to 56 secs) he of course keeps doing
it as always and you can clearly see it again at 2:12 on the slider

That is not very kid or family friendly? I guess the WWE doesn't know of the old saying
"Bad language makes for Bad feelings"


 Also regarding Stone Cold, you could blame WWE for alcoholism
all those years right up to recently where Stone Cold would come out
and downing "Steveweisers"

A kid could see that and think that drinking makes him cool and/or tough and take it up.
He could start drinking at an early age become an alcoholic and end up suffer from
Chronic pancreatiti, liver disease and quite possibility Cancer.

He could get drunk and start fights and serious hurt people or himself get hurt,
He could be drunk and get behind the wheel of a car and cause a serious accident
where you would hear on the news that he was a fan of WWE and more importantly 
the hard drinking personality know as Stone Cold Steve Austin
"many family and friends said he took up drink because his hero did"

  Also this guy could get drunk and hit his girlfriend/wife 
with out the benefit of video games. (becasue apparently
Inter-gender violence in video games turns men into women
beaters or so I'm told)
Some weeks ago on RAW John Cena took part in drinking with
Stone Cold

Now kids look up to Cena and what type of example is this
sending to them?
Also I have to laugh at John Cena and the WWE.   He is no longer allowed to do
the "STFU"  its just a "STF" now, along with the "FU" which is now an
"Attitude Adjustment"  but the thing that makes me giggle all the time is
his "5 Knuckle Shuffle"   am I the only one who knows that this name is
another term for masturbation?  As in a guy jerking off..
I don't know if the WWE or John Cena know this?  but it makes me
laugh ever time!  


  I was talking to a friend of mine, the other day about this topic and we had to have a
laugh becasue the blaming of video games for all of societies problems happened before,
but not with video games.. but with another popular medium the Comic Book.  

Back in the 1940's and 1950's of the comic book censorship crusade,
refereed to by many as the "Seduction of the Innocent" which is
biased on a book of the same name which was created out of the
apparent findings and the works of Dr. Fredric Wertham.


"Seduction of the Innocent is a book by German-American psychiatrist
Fredric Wertham, published in 1954, that warned that comic books were
a negative form of popular literature and a serious cause of juvenile
delinquency. The book was a minor bestseller that created alarm in parents
and galvanized them to campaign for censorship. At the same time, a U.S.
Congressional inquiry was launched into the comic book industry. Subsequent
to the publication of Seduction of the Innocent, the Comics Code Authority
was voluntarily established by publishers to self-censor their titles."
 (Quote from  Wikipedia)

 In this book it made many wild claims that comics promoted
juvenile delinquency,violence, sex, drug use and also made
outrageous clams that Characters such as Batman and Robin were gay lovers,
Wonder Woman's strength and independence made her a lesbian and
 Superman was Un-American and was a fascist. 

Wertham even gave testimony before the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile
Delinquency restating arguments from his book and pointed to comics as a
major cause of juvenile crime.

With parental complaints and a governmental ruling handed down
which did not blame comics for crime, but recommended that the comics
industry tone down under the threat of potential censorship.
The comics code was created. 

In the documentary film Comic Books Unbound, Stan Lee and other industry
figures state that the book caused comic book sales to plunge as well as
lead to mass public burnings of comics.

Lucky as of the 2000s the comics code is no longer in use

 Why is this important in a topic about Video Games?
becasue pretty much the same thing happened to Video games.

In the early to mid 90s  After the release of games such as
Mortal Kombat, Doom, ect. there was much controversy over video game
content. Hearings on video game violence and the corruption of society
took place. (sound familiar?) and the cycle started all over again...
The Hearings headed by Joe Lieberman and Herb Kohl were held in late
1992 to 1993. The result of the hearings was that the entertainment
software industry was given one year to form a working rating system
or the federal government would intervene and create its own system.
(again governmental threats, much like the Comic Industry faced)

Around this time, the Video game Rating Council (VRC)
was formed by Sega of America to rate mostly its own games as other
publishers did the same.  It wasn't until On July 29, 1994 the proposal
from the IDSA for a rating system, the Entertainment Software Rating
Board (ESRB) was presented in Congress and approved. In September 1994,
the ESRB was established and became the de facto rater of video games in
the United States.

But like I said before...what good is a ratings board if very few
pay attention to it? 

Now in closing
take this shooting in Norway..  It is a terrible thing that happened but
did you know 9 times out of ten  the first question that is asked is
did the shooter play video games?  why do they ask this? for sensationalism
and like I said they need something to blame.. 
I haven't really been following the story, but the guy could have had a
great deal of mental problems, but that wouldn't matter if he played video games
becasue of course then the "Media" would have something to point the finger at
and say "AH HA! see! the video games drove him to do it"  even if there is no evidence
that he remotely played any video games  you mention video game in the same
breath as this tragedy and people will jump all over it.

 Now  it has been made clear that the Shooter (know as Anders Behring Breivik)
had claimed to have used Modern Warfare 2 as a "Training tool" 
the article I read this in is from PC World and can be found here:
 PCWorld Article
the most important part I think of this article is as follows

Matt Peckham, PCWorld:


as for Modern Warfare 2's mention as a "training tool," what of it? 
If your aim's to shoot accurately, shooting ranges are certainly also 
training tools. So are BB guns, bows, pellet guns (and even, to a lesser 
extent, water pistols and rifles). 
Flight simulators have been located on computers found at suspected 
Al Qaeda training bases. Should we ban shooting ranges, BB and pellet 
guns, archery, and flight simulators because some nutjob goes ballistic, 
then cites a video game as a "training tool" in a 1,500-page assemblage 
of philosophical mumbo-jumbo? 
Simply because of the potential for indirect misuse?


Of course not. There's no causal link here. All we have is another 
aberrant who's done something shocking but, it's worth bearing in mind, 
exceedingly rare; someone who allegedly chose to use widely available 
technology as a savage means to his own twisted political ends."

-------------------------------------

The above quote is like what I said before in the original Blog post:
"Now If a guy is sick and simply wants to beat up women for no
reason that's HIS problem. He will find a way to do sick things otherwise!
I for one want to  boot up a game,Play as my character and have a knockdown
drag out fight with the Undertaker, why?  becasue that is fun
what would you rather do have a knock down drag out fight
3 stages of hell or Hell in a Cell with the Undertaker or
a singles match with Beth Phoenix for the 15th million time"

The game is not telling you to go beat up women, Nor is
WWE or THQ, NOBODY is telling you to do that it is just
a game meant for fun and is sadly taken to serious my most
people.

 If  a game like SVR (WWE'12) and others like it such as
Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter is to blame for Domestic
as well as Inter-Gender violence then a game like Tomb Raider
can be blamed for promoting animal cruelty and you don't
see Peta storming the offices of Core Design or Crystal Dynamics

becasue Lara is shooting some wolves, bats and Dinosaurs.

  Now even as much as people would like to
think there is proof ... in the end there is no hard evidence that
media violence creates real world violence.

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